王海川:褪色的城市景观 虚设的“人性”风景
Wang Haichuan:
Fading City Landscape, Virtual “Human Nature” Scene
王海川是一位把目光投向城市居住环境的艺术家,早年景观设计的工作经历,使他对周边正在变化着的城市景观有着持续的敏感。那些被设计的人性,人造的风景,公共化的权利象征,无人的小区院景,在城市发展的历史变迁中产生分化。人类对改变自身生活环境的努力,是否正在逐渐褪去它应有的颜色?
Wang Haichuan is an artist who devoted his mind to city living environment. As having landscape designed work experience in his early, he has continuous sensitive to changing city landscape around him. The designed human nature, man-made scene, the symbol of public power and no person block scene were divided in the city development history. Whether the efforts that human being changed their own living environment has been taking off the integral color gradually.
城市景观设计,私人生活环境
City landscape design, personal life environment
艺术经纬:这次展览上的是最近的作品吗?
Editor: Is the late works in this exhibition?
王:应该是我2008到今年的作品。
Mr. Wang: It was my works from 2008 to this year.
艺术经纬:您是哪年到的北京?
Editor: Which year did you come to Beijing?
王:08年初。
Mr. Wang: The early of 2008.
艺术经纬:这一阶段的作品都在这个展览里了?
Editor: Are the stage works in the exhibition?
王:对,大部分。
Mr. Wang: Yes. Most.
艺术经纬:来北京前你在干什么?
Editor: What did you do before that?
王:之前是在重庆,搞景观设计公司。
Mr. Wang: I run a landscape design company in Chongqing city.
艺术经纬:什么时候开始转向绘画的?
Editor: When did you transform painting?
王:2007年吧。
Mr. Wang: 2007.
艺术经纬:能谈谈你的设计工作吗?
Editor: Could you tell me about your design work?
王:我开的是景观设计公司,对于那种小区啊,住宅环境这些接触得比较多,自然各色客户也见识不少。重庆直辖以后,地产开发很热嘛,就有很多项目,但设计过程中所有客户都要求我们把他们的项目设计成为美国、西班牙和日本的,再瞧瞧他们长得都不像这些地方的人种,也就是说我干了几年“伤天害理”的事情,直到终于有一天“良心发现”,想挽回点什么,于是在07年决定关掉公司,我捡起画笔,把很多对建筑,对环境的感受表达出来。
Mr. Wang: I run a landscape design company. I touched many blocks and the house environment. I contacted variety customers. Chongqing had be a municipality directly under the Central Government. The real estates were developed overheat and there were many projects. All customers demand us that their projects were designed America, Spanish and Japan style. You know, their faces were not foreign ethnic group. That is, I had done bad things several years. Until my found my conscience, I should do good things. So I closed down my company in 2007. I took my brush to express the feeling about architecture and environment.
艺术经纬:但是看您的画面是种旁观的感觉,这里面是不是有一种疏离感,因为这个颜色基本上都是白、灰色调?
Editor: Seeing your painting, I have a look on feeling. As the color your painting was basically white and gray, do it have an alienated feeling?
王:对,色彩色调的灰白是一种主观的处理,这有两层意义:第一是,记忆感,像黑白照片一样会成为历史,它满足了建筑的时间特性;第二层是,去掉更多的色彩后会留下最本质的东西。它就是和我们有距离,虽然我们在现实的现在不能理清它,但最终会渐渐退掉绚烂的色彩,变成残缺的记忆痕迹。
Mr. Wang: Yes. I deal with the gray of color and toner subjective. Why? There are two meaning. The first: memorial feeling, like Black and white pictures had been the history; satisfy the time character of architecture. The second: more colors were got rid of and remain the best natural things. There is a distance between it and us. Though we cannot clear off it now, it would get rid of gorgeous colors the last and it become incomplete memorial marks.
艺术经纬:好像现在流行各种欧美风格?
Editor: It seems that verities Europe and America style were popular.
王:对,而且有的地方一条街上,左边是西班牙风格,右边是北美风格,在尽头上还有一个地中海风格。
Mr. Wang: Yes. The left is Spanish style, the right is North America style, and the end is the Mediterranean Sea style in a street someplace.
艺术经纬:这个挺……
Editor: It likes……
王:魔幻的。
Mr. Wang: It likes magic.
艺术经纬:那么他们是怎么形成的,是政府城市规划吗?还是……
Editor: How did they form? Did the government plan or……?
王:不是,都是开发商干的,实际上这是开发商的主意,因为他们是最早富起来这一部分人,他们就有机会经常出去玩,或者叫考察也好,澳洲啊,美国啊,欧洲啊这些,看到人家开游艇,喝香槟,晒日光浴,沙滩和阳光弄不回去,看看建筑,觉得还可以搞。然后回国告诉设计师:“我要把水库前面这块地变成黄金海岸!”设计师就想嘛,你付钱,我也不用动脑筋,傻了才不做,就按你的要求做。然后就……
Mr. Wang: No. the developer did it. Actually this is their idea. Because they are rich the early times, they often tour Austria, America and Europe or called exploration. They see driving yachts, drinking champagne and shining sunbath. The sun and beach in there cannot take. They think that they can copy architectures. They told designers: “I want to the land of reservoir become the golden coast.” The designers thought you pay money, I don’t need to think and it’s up to you .And then……
艺术经纬:设计师也成了“帮凶”,呵呵。
Editor: The designers became “accomplices”. Ha-ha.
王:对!有些设计师就是出于无奈,屈服于金钱的淫威,有的还有良心,会尽量做得不过分,但可悲的是,有些设计师本来就是些没文化的傻瓜!
Mr. Wang: Yes. Some designers had no choice. They yielded to the despotic power of money. Some had litter kind, did not it overdo. But some were fools that had no culture unfortunately.
艺术经纬:您的画有很多画小区的局部,那您平时对一个地方是一下子有一种感觉,还是经常路过那儿,对那儿慢慢形成有一种习惯?
Editor: You drew part of block in your painting. You had a feeling about a place quickly or formed a custom slowly often pass by there?
王:有两种,比如说我去好的小区的时候,绿化做得很好,而且那个房子密度也不大。住在里面的时候,就一下子失去判断,就想我住在这儿还是很舒服的,因为你和身边的其他环境比的话,这个肯定舒服,而且周围都是围墙围着,你觉得这儿特安全,有时候你就不会去想其他的文化问题:作为东方人到底应该住哪样的房子,怎样去生活。所以在有些角落,画有些局部的时候,我就觉得他就是一个符号,然后这个局部符号被反复播放,你每天经过,每天看,你就习惯了,然后他就形成你生活的一部分,你就会对它熟视无睹,你觉得这个是顺理成章的,是不加思索的东西。
Mr. Wang: There are two. For example, I went to a beautiful block, landscaping was better and the density of house was not big. Living here people would lack of judgments. They thought that it was comfortable that I live here. As you compare other environment, it was comfortable and you felt safe enclosed the wall. Sometimes you would not think other culture. As oriental we should live where how was houses and how to life. So some corner, when I was painting the part, I think it was a sign. This sign was play repeatedly. I see it everyday. I was used to it. It was a part in my life. I think it was natural thing.
艺术经纬:也就是说我们“被”放弃了判断?
Editor: That is we were given up the judgment.
王:对!人没判断的时候是很可怕的。
Mr. Wang: Yes. It is harmful that a person didn’t have judgment.
艺术经纬:这种没判断是不是也包含了他的理想,或者是对于物质的一种占有?他还没满足,算是人之常情,我觉得谁都会那样。
Editor: The person who didn’t have judgment that including his ideal or possess of material didn’t satisfy. I think many people would be the same.
王:是,所以这个是矛盾的嘛,一方面就是你没法抗拒,真的,但另外一个方面,你想抗拒它的时候,你找不到其他更好的办法!
Mr. Wang: Yeah. This is contradiction. One aspect, you didn’t resist; other aspect, you didn’t find a better way when you resisted
艺术经纬:你能描述一下我们现在的居住环境吗?
Editor: Could you describe the environment we live?
王:实际上我们现在的生活环境是很被动的,你在被人规划和设计。拿客厅为例,一套房最主要的房间是客厅。比如说一进室内,首先就是客厅,以前我们的家庭里面,改革开放以后,家里客厅有个电视墙,这个是最重要的家庭活动场所。过去,每天一家人吃完饭,从新闻联播开始,一直到韩剧、春晚,这是家庭的一个中心场所。然而房地产开发商觉得这个不对,这个太落后了,我们现在是要向先进学习,先进在哪儿,就在西方式的生活道具, 壁炉是很标志性的西方贵族道具。于是出现壁炉,最早的壁炉是假的,就是带装饰性的,火苗是塑料的那种,它不能发热的,后来慢慢档次就提高嘛,人家就不满足样式了,说一定要烧火,烧柴火,然后整个中心就变成这样,什么红酒啊,雪茄啊这些,慢慢加进来了。
Mr. Wang: Actually my life environment was inactive, it was planed and designed. Take the living room for an example, a living room is primary room in a house. When you enter into the house, the first eye is the living room. After accomplished the policy of reform and opening, a television wall was in it. It is the important active place. In the past, a family had supper and saw TV news, Korea TV play series, Spring Festival Entertainment Programme in the living room.
But the developer said it was out of time, we learn from the west. Fireplace is a label of the Nobel in the west. So it appeared in the living room. In the early it was fake and a decorated thing. The flame was made by plastic and it didn’t heat. Later it leveled. Other said be sure to use firewood. And then the living room had had red wine, cigar.
艺术经纬:这不是抄袭别人的生活吗?
Editor: Is it copy others life?
王:是啊,所以说中国是“山寨”大国!生活都“山寨”了。
Mr. Wang: Yes. So it is said that China is a “copy” big country! My life also is “copy”.
艺术经纬:现在很多中国人,好像挺习惯于别人来规划设计他的生活的?
Editor: Do many Chinese is used to others plan his life now?
王:对,很多人是一种被动状态。之所以我觉得这个有意思就是这个东西本来是,你不是主动在选择,你是被动地在选择,他就给你几种样式,而且现在更多的是西方的,包括有些后现代的建筑,他也是一种西方形式。那我们传统的东方的那种居住形态,他现在是不一样的。所以我在和他们聊,有的人看到那种筒子楼的时候,他说,哎呀,这就是我们以前住的地方。今后下一代就会觉得壁炉就是自己的记忆,
Mr. Wang: Yes. Many people were in inactive state. I think it was fun that you are chosen the thing that he offered. Mostly they were the west, including after-modern time architecture. Our traditional living form is difference from the west. When some people saw the tube-shaped apartment, he said: “This is we living the early.” The fireplace will be our memory the next generation.
艺术经纬:童年记忆?
Editor: Childhood memory?
王:对!童年记忆,实际上对于很多人来说的话,是一个集体记忆,那个时候我给他们说过,哪一家他有什么事儿,家里面有什么矛盾,吵架,一栋楼都知道了,哪家做了好吃的,大家都能闻到,吵架都能听到,哪家小孩听话不听话,或者成绩考了两个百分……这些都知道,那个时候是一种邻里关系。
Mr. Wang: Yes. It was childhood memory. Actually this is a group memory to many people. That time I said, all people living the apartment knew the family that had some conflicts. A family had delicious a dinner, all tasted it. Who family’s child is smart or not and pass the exam, grade double one hundred……these was known by all. It is a neighborhood relation.
艺术经纬:像集体生活一样?
Editor: Is it like group life?
王:对,但是现在别墅和别墅之间交流很少,更不用说单体楼的那种电梯公寓,像门对门你肯定不知道对方是做什么的,你除非是很主动地,有可能对方会主动拒绝。
Mr. Wang: Yes. But the people living in villa, they contact very rare. Living the department with elevate, you don’t know your neighbor’s job. Except you ask initiative, they would be rejected your question.
艺术经纬:对,有时候你主动地跟人说话,人家还不知道你要干嘛,他还有戒备,也就是点个头,“你好”,这样子还行,一跟他深聊他有时还觉得莫名其妙。
Editor: Yes. Some times you talk to other and he didn’t know what you do. He alerts you and nods his head say: “Hello!” if you talk deep, he would be strange.
王:对。所以他这个生活实际上被设计化了,人性被抹杀,是一种非东方的、非传统的一种方式来给你套,因为大家都崇尚西方的科技。中国在本世纪初就开始有发展论,想发展,像西方一样,朝西方学习,我认为发展需要同步。就是说经济与文化必须同步,一味地往前赶最后会迷失掉的。
Mr. Wang: Yes. His life was designed. His human nature was killed. It is non-oriental and non-traditional way. As many advocate western technology. China raised the theory of development in the early 20th century. It wants to develop, and learn from the west. I think that economy and culture must be developed together, if it progress forward, it would be lost.
艺术经纬:对,这样生活的人不在少数。
Editor: Yes. There have many.
王:对。
Mr. Wang: Yes.
艺术经纬:而且那种所谓的高端阶层有钱人,他们都在用这种方式生活,他们的追求,他们对生活的理想是被别人设计出来的,底层的人可能还挺羡慕这种生活。
Editor: The life way of many so called high-class the rich and their pursuit and dream were designed by other. Do many low class people admire their life?
王:对啊,大家都想往那个上面奔,然后他就是一种身份象征。
Mr. Wang: Right. Many people want to progress, and it is a symbol of status.
艺术经纬:发展是您一直以来关注的一个题材?
Editor: In terms of development, is it you pay attention to a theme?
王:应该是吧。
Mr. Wang: It should be.
公共景观中的人造痕迹
Man-made mark in public landscape
艺术经纬:您有一个阶段画庙堂系列,那个时候好像比较关注公共景观?
Editor: You have a stage painting temple series, and you paid more attention to public landscape at that time.
王:对,那个是公共景观,实际上他是一种集合,我觉得,他集合到一定形态的时候,就是一个影子嘛,是很多人的意志被极少数人决定,形成的一个建筑形态。建筑它有个特性,它不像其他东西,建筑相对来说,保留的时间非常长。您比如说随便我们找一栋房子,从修建开始,到它最后被推掉,至少是几十上百年的时间,有的会更长。人是生活在一个具体的环境里面的,
Mr. Wang: Yes. That is public landscape. The character of architecture is not like others, it keeps a long time relatively speaking. Take example for house, from it was build to was push over, it lasts from several decades to hundreds years, maybe it long. The people live in a concrete background.
艺术经纬:对,你看现在房价,弄得很多人人心惶惶的?
Editor: Yes. It is terrified that house price is high.
王:实际上租房和买房,从某种角度上来说的话,我觉得租房更合算,你算账的话。
Mr. Wang: Actually, renting and buying a house, from one point, I think it is fit to renting.
艺术经纬:但是像他们那种急,好像是一种没着没落,没根的那种?
Editor: But some are worried. Their feel like they don’t have a root.
王:对,觉得没有一个属于自己的东西,就拼命地想贷款也好,怎么也好,到处借钱也好,一定我要弄一个属于自己的房子。但这个房子你拿到以后,有年限的,感觉不一定是属于你的。当然,这个话题就扯得太远,扯到一些体制上的问题,制度上的问题,这个问题上,我觉得可以暂时不谈,因为这个是没法扭转的一个东西,但是建筑本身的形态(因为我是做建筑和景观设计的)这些角度来看的话,我觉得这个是人为可以改变的东西。也就是说在有生之年一定要好好过。
Mr. Wang: Yes. They think they have not own house. They request a loan or lend for a house. But the age of the house you get is limited. Of course, the issue is off the point. It is a question of system. Let me leave it. It doesn’t reverse. In terms of architecture’ shape, I think it is changeable by man. That is we should have a great life.
艺术经纬:你有一个《人造风景》系列,你对“人造景观”有什么现实印象吗?
Editor: You have "Man-made landscape" series painting, what the real impression of man-made landscape?
王:人造风景实际上画的主要是两批,一批是关于公路的,另外一批是关于人工林的,它们都是非自然的一个东西。你说公路的话,你能马上感觉到它是人工化的东西,但是人工林的话,你可能感觉不到它的人为因素在里面。我是去日本的时候看他们那个人工林,树完全是人为修剪,他为了成材嘛,长得越直越好,他需要把其他的分杈啊这些全砍掉,而且一个森林里面没有其他植物,其他的全被砍掉。这样一来树木开始报复性传播花粉,因为树是一样的,有雌性、有雄性,它也要交配,它自己要繁衍,但一个林子里可交配的资源少了,花粉就不得不四处扩散,最后就形成花粉蔓延,人跟着倒霉,呼吸进呼吸道形成花粉症,号称他们的“国民病”,每年日本得花粉症的比例好像20%。
Mr. Wang: Man-made landscape was painted two groups. One is highways. Other is man-made forests. They are not natural things. Many people can feel quickly that highways are man-made, but it isn’t easy to you that find that they are man-made forests. When I went to Japan, the trees were trimmed in order to its growing well. Its branches were chopped. There is no plant in the forest. Other plants were also chopped. The trees began to spread retaliatory the pollens. As the trees have female and male, they also need mating. And there are no mating plants, so the pollen had to spread. It led to pollen disease, also called “National illness”. The proportion of having pollen disease is 20% every year.
艺术经纬:它这种花粉,因为那个树的密度特别大吗,还是?
Editor: The pollen? Do the trees have especial large density or others?
王:这个完全是人为造成的,但是我们看那个人工林植树,现在,中国森林面积很小嘛,他就觉得人工的是很重要的一个东西。任何东西到了一定的程度,到了一个比例上面,过多或者一种极端的时候它就会变,这个就是一个例子。还有路的话,我觉得更多的是一种人为对本来这一块自然和文化的侵入,特别这次去西藏看见到处修路,今年10月份好像是西藏自治区成立60周年,然后要求几条线317、318等,全要改成非常好的路面。目前路途上还能看到野牦牛、藏羚羊和藏人天真的笑容。但随着道路的延伸,大量人流的涌入,这一切将不复存在。我们会失去最后的“香巴拉”。
Mr. Wang: It was totally man-made. As the area of forest in China is very small, we think man-made forest is very important. That something reaches a certain proportion is changed. It is an example. I think that building highway is an invasion of nature and culture. Especially I saw many highways were built anywhere in Tibet. October is the 60th anniversary of the Establishment of Tibet Autonomous Region this year. The government demands several line and line 318 and 317 are changed great highways. At present, wild yaks, antelopes and naive smile of Tibetan are seen in the way. With the extending of the highways, and the people booming, it is missing. We will lose the last “Shangri-La”.
艺术经纬:那块的藏民他们觉得怎样?
Editor: How do they think?
王:他们觉得好啊,就像现在我们觉得花园洋房好,高档别墅好一样。他们通过这个公路能看到从外面世界来的很多东西,人、车、流行音乐、汉堡包,以前是没有这些经验的,他们慢慢会有。这个是我们从发展论上面来说,他是一个进步,但是从另外角度上来说的话,他也是对当地的一些生态,人文宗教文化的破坏。
Mr. Wang: They think it is great. It like I think that foreign-style house and garden and villa are good. They can see many things, people, cars, pop music and Hamburg through the highways. They had not these experiences before, and they will have them gradually. In terms of the theory of development, it is a progress. At another point of view, it destroys ecology and humanity and religion culture of Tibet.
艺术经纬:西藏对你意味着什么?
Editor: What the meaning of Tibet to you?
王:我觉得它是一面镜子,能让你看到我们自己有多不净。
Mr. Wang: I think it is a mirror that it can see how we are dirty.
城市景观的中西方差异
The difference of the east and the west in city landscape
艺术经纬:人造的可能渗透在各方面了。您园林这个实际上画的不是中国的?
Editor: The Man-made thing could have penetrated many aspects. The garden you painting is not China, isn’t it?
王:不是,是日本的。
Mr. Wang: Yes. It is Japan.
艺术经纬:日本的园林好像比咱们还东方,他们也是造景,但是跟苏州的园林不太一样。
Editor: The garden of Japan is more traditional than that of China. They also made landscape, are not the same compare Suzhou garden.
王:也不能这样说,只是它保留下来的多,他也是造景,实际上我觉得性质是一样的,都是属于少部分人的,要么是有钱富贾,要么是皇宫贵族,他们想把他们理想中最好的大川大水,或者就是很美好的东西集中到自己的后院里面,独自占有它。苏州园林是典型的,还有就是日本的“枯山水”,还有其他的一些园林建筑,它都是这样。
Mr. Wang: You can’t say that. It just remains many. It made landscape. Actually, it belongs to few people that they are the rich and the Nobel. They want to put together all ideal mountain and water or beautiful things in their back garden. The garden of Suzhou is typical. “Ku shan shui” of Japan and other garden were man-made.
艺术经纬:也像公园一样对外开放的?
Editor: Is it open like ordinary garden?
王:在它建造之初绝对没有公共性考虑的,它们都在寺庙里面,皇宫里面,老百姓进不去的。
Mr. Wang: No. when it was build, public was not been consider. They were in the temple and imperial palace. Ordinary people cannot enter there.
艺术经纬:您经常去日本?
Editor: Do you often go to Japan?
王:对。
Mr. Wang: Yes.
艺术经纬:对那边有什么印象?
Editor: What impression do you have ?
王:印象?日本的文化,它的经济发展到很高的时候,它的文化艺术就变得不一样,我们现在所谓的当代艺术,更多的是批判性嘛,但是他们经济和社会发展到一定水平的时候,批判性显得很弱。
Mr. Wang: Impression? The culture and art of Japan become unlike when its economic developed high level. Our so called contemporary art now is more criticalness, but when economic and society developed a certain level, criticalness is weak.
艺术经纬:建设性的东西多一些?
Editor: Is more constructive?
王:他关注的东西不一样了。我们在中国建国几十年以来,关注的可能更多的是很纠结的社会矛盾,你说八十年代开始,什么政治波普啊玩世啊艳俗啊这些,他是站在一个批判的角度来说问题。但是日本它也有类似的东西,它目前已不是主流的东西,更多我们能看到的是他们在无对象地臆想一些东西,就是在想象一个在现实中不存在的东西,毫无社会针对性,只是一种自娱自乐的。 这个就是我认为的日本卡通的社会土壤。它在这种情况下形成,我称之为和谐艺术。我还写过一篇文章《和谐的表情》来说日本的当代艺术。
Mr. Wang: The Japan paid attention to different things. Since 1949, some social conflicts were paid attention to. Since the 80’s, politic Pope, bohemianism and raffish things were paid attention to, they was criticized. But the Japan has the resemble things, they are not mainstream. We can see that they image a thing that doesn’t exist in reality. It is enjoy itself. That is the social soil of Japan cartoon. I called it " Harmonious art".
I wrote an article "Harmonious express" about Japanese contemporary art.
艺术经纬:每个人都可以造梦了?
Editor: Do everybody made a dream?
王:对,实际上更多的是梦幻的一种东西,他是设计人的那种形态、外形,他是按自己的要求在创造,他不是现实主义的东西,因为你说现实,说历史,你肯定是在审视它,对它有要求,甚至是批判性的,但是这一类东西,卡通这一类的东西,他就完全不一样。
Mr. Wang: Yes. Actually it is a more dreamlike thing. It designs people’s form and figure. It innovates according to its need, and it is not a real thing. It is reality and history; you survey it and demand it and critic. But cartoon isn’t the same.
艺术经纬:感觉起来,他无论是对自己的还是对别人是有信心的?
Editor: It was confidence to itself and other. Wasn’t it?
王:我接触他们,对艺术家,这个说实话,他们既崇拜又不屑一顾,他们认为艺术家是很少的一部分人能当职业玩儿的。因为他们的普世价值是奉献,奉献给社会,最好的办法你就去上班啊,你去当工人、营业员啊,所以日语里叫他们“社会人”。
Mr. Wang: I touched them. To artist, actually, they admire them and do not worth a single glance. They think that litter artist to do art that can be a professional. Because their value is devotion, it devotes the society. The best way is tihat you go to work, and as worker and shop girl. So they called “Social man” in Japanese.
艺术经纬:你觉得搞艺术还是奉献得太少?
Editor: Do you think artist devote litter?
王:对,实际上这不是一种社会分工,而是社会在养你,一种自私的选择,比如说当年我考四川美术学院附中很大个原因是文化成绩不好,只有附中好考,现在的艺术院校考生不都一样,所以我从来就没觉得自己搞艺术有什么了不起,我只是把画画当作一种解脱办法和独善其身的修行方式.
Mr. Wang: Yes. In fact this is not social division of labor, but the society bring you and a selfish choice. For example, I entered myself for attached middle school of Sichun Academy of Art examination. My cultural grade was not good and had to choice it. Now art schools students are the same. So I don’t think that I do art is amazing. I just regard it as a way of extricate myself and the way that was righteous alone in a community where the general moral tone is low.
艺术经纬:那你怎么看当代艺术圈?
Editor: How do you think contemporary art circle?
王:这圈鱼龙混杂,大都是在“混口饭吃”罢了!
Mr. Wang: The art circle is like dragons and fishes jumbled together. They are just earning their bread.
回到绘画依然对景观敏感
Back to painting and still sensitive to the landscape
艺术经纬:我刚才一直想问,这个铜元局是?
Editor: Editor: I’d like to ask what the Tongyuanju is just now.
王:铜元局是重庆南岸区江边的很老的一个区域,是地名。可能你没有住过这种房子。应该是六七十年代的一个标准建筑形式,楼不高,一般是七层以内,有的一般是五层、六层这种,单位修的,在这里面,我说的刚才那种邻里关系啊这种,他就是在这个生活状态。
Mr.Wang: Tongyuanju is a geographic name, which is very old area of on the side of the river in Nan’an district of Chonqing. Maybe you have not lived in such house. It should be the standard architectural form of sixties and seventies, that is, no high buildings, usually seven floors or less, and some are usually five or six floors, built by units. Here, the neighborhood I mentioned just now is this living state.
艺术经纬:他就是一种圆顶房子,是不是为了排水?
Editor: It’s a dome house, is its intention for drainage?
王:一个是防水,第二个是隔热,有拱形,它能通风嘛,对,能通风。
Mr.Wang: One is waterproof, and other is insulation and with arches. The arches can be used ventilation. Yes, it can.
艺术经纬:这种房屋在重庆是挺多的,还是说那个时间段比较多?
Editor: Were there many this kind of house in Chongqing, or were there many at that time?
王:以前是全国都很多。这种一般是国营企业,以前国营大的企业他修职工宿舍,基本上按这个来修。因为重庆以前是工业城市,以前很多地方都有,现在快拆完了。
Mr.Wang: There were many houses all over the country before and generally built by state-owned enterprises. The staff dormitories were basically built according to such form by the large state-owned enterprises before. As an industrial city previously, there were distributed throughout many places in Chongqing and now they were pushed down nearly.
艺术经纬:可能是那个时候的一种流行的样式吧?
Editor: Maybe it was a popular style at that moment, wasn’t it?
王:对,那个时候的产物,也是我们居住记忆的一部分。
Mr.Wang: Yes, it was the product of that time and also one part of our living memory.
艺术经纬:那这个师家沟是哪儿的?
Editor: Then where were the Shijiagou?
王:师家沟是山西的一个窑洞建筑,实际上它就是一个坡地建筑,是在一个山沟里面随地势做的一个建筑。这个建筑我觉得是很好的一个就地用材,比如这儿没有什么树,他就尽量少用木头,就用砖和泥两种材料来做,还加一些石头。而且他们那种院和院之间那种交通梳理啊,让你觉得设计得非常人性,非常人性的。
Mr.Wang: Shijiagou is a cave dwelling building in Shanxi, in fact it is a hillside building which located in a valley with the terrain. I think it is well done to obtain materials from local sources, for example, there are little tree here, then it minimize the use of wood and used brick and mud, and added some stones. Furthermore, you will feel the design of arrangement of traffic among yards is humanistic very much.
艺术经纬:它这个很快出来的,还是慢慢形成的?
Editor: Was it formed quickly or gradually?
王:这个应该是清代到民国时期的建筑。
Mr.Wang: This should be the contracture from Qing Dynasty to the Republic of China.
艺术经纬:民间慢慢形成的?
Editor: Was it formed gradually among the folk?
王:对,民间慢慢形成的。他里面能看到那种传统中国建筑里面的一些伦理道德的东西,就是一个家庭里面,比如正堂、厢房这些东西,我觉得这个就是中国,是中国传统的东西。
Mr.Wang:Yes, it was. We can see that it reflected Chinese ethical in traditional Chinese architecture. That is, there were, for example, something like antechamber and wing-rooms in a family, which is Chinese traditional things, I think.
艺术经纬:看起来不像四合院那么规矩?
Editor: Doesn’t it look like courtyard well-disciplined?
王: 看起来不像四合院那么规矩,但错乱中有规矩章法,因为山西他那个地方,可能也受一些环境、材料的限制,他也要有居住,而且山西的很多建筑是做得很好的,包括那个乔家大院啊这些。
Mr.Wang: Though it does not look like courtyard well-disciplined, there are rules and composition in disorder, such place of Shanxi, may also be affected by some environmental constraints, material constraints, they also have to build for living, and many buildings of Shanxi are well done, including these such as the Qiao Family Courtyard.
艺术经纬:对对对,我去看过,而且乔家大院很大。
Editor: Right, I have gone to see it and it is large.
王: 那个是其中一个大家。我画的师家沟它就是一个村,都是差不多大小的房子 。
Mr.Wang: That is one of the large courtyards. The Shijiagou I painted is a village, and all houses are almost the same size.
艺术经纬:但是互相结合的就特别好?
Editor: But is the combination with each other particularly good?
王:对,结合得非常好,因为重庆是坡地嘛,我们在设计的时候,就会考虑到坡地建筑的一些,就是交通梳理啊这些东西,我一看人家梳理得很好,一百年前就做得很好了。
Mr.Wang: Yes, it is. Because there are many hill slopes in Chongqing, when we designed, we would have to take into account something of the slope building, this was, these things such as traffic arrangement, and I find it was done well one hundred year ago.
艺术经纬:而且他不是属于那种一家隔一个大院,都挨着。
Editor: And they are near each other and not separated by a country yard.
王:都挨着的,有的共用一个墙,而且他取水、排水这些都很合理的。
Mr.Wang: All next to. Some share a wall, and getting water and drainage are all reasonable.
艺术经纬:您也比较关心这种像什么新闻事件,或者是?
Editor: You also pay attention to news and events, or like this, are you?
王:我觉得新闻是历史发展的节点事件,历史在发展,就会不断有新闻发生。我想用我的价值观来分析过滤过去和现在所发生的节点事件,比如说我画《登月》,实际上是对人类科技发展的一个悖论,我们自身所处的地球是否已经容不下我们人类自身,要是月球住满人类后,被人类糟蹋后又怎么办?
Mr. Wang: I think the news is a node event in the history development. As the history development, the news would be come out. I want to analyze the node of the past and now using my value. For example, I painted "Ascend the moon"; actually it was a paradox of human technology development. Whether the earth we live can’t hold us, we want to the moon to live. The moon would be destroyed, how should we do?
艺术经纬:那个时候怎么想到从景观设计转到今天的绘画的?
Editor: How did you transform from landscape design at that time to painting now?
王:我以前是川美油画专业毕业的啊,算是老本行。
Mr. Wang: I graduated oil painting of Sichun Academy of Art. It is my major.
艺术经纬:你是偶然间回来的吗,还是?
Editor: Did you do art by chance or ……?
王:07年初到北京见朋友,被“忽悠”来了(哈哈)。突然想通了吧。以前是做生意嘛,做生意你就会遇到很多让你不开心的事情。但不是说挣不到钱,肯定能挣到钱,但是你会放弃很多,你的原则,你对人的喜好,有的你很讨厌他,但是他是甲方,他有权利,你会牺牲这些东西,我想我现在差不多了,不想再牺牲了。
Mr. Wang: I visited my friend to Beijing in the early 2007. I was cheated. I think clear suddenly. Before doing a business, I faced many unhappy things. It is not said that I didn’t earn money, but I gave up my principal and hobby. Some times you hate him, but he was part A and he had a power, I could scarify something. I thought it was enough and I didn’t scarify again.
艺术经纬:这也算是一种交换啊,好像貌似必须要忍受一下,然后才能得到钱?
Editor: Is that an exchange? You must be bear and then you can get the money.
王:对啊,对。你们做杂志也是经营,你也知道。
Mr. Wang: Yeah. You know, that you run magazine also is business.
艺术经纬:我做这个是因为我觉得那边能挣到钱,我这边就能够坚持着做艺术,但是如果单纯在这儿扛着,我觉得扛不了多久。
Editor: I do it in order to earn money. I think I can earn money there, I can insist do art here. If only I do this, I would be break down.
王:我以前比较极端,要做的话,我肯定要做到最好。我们设计公司,也是在重庆很有名的一个设计公司,我一旦对做事较上劲,就会争个输赢。现在看来有点死磕!
Mr. Wang: I was extreme a little bit before, if I can do it, I would do the best. Our design company is a famous company in Chongqing. Once I do it serious, I would contend win or lost. It seemed that it too rigid.
艺术经纬:我觉得还是搞艺术的人一旦做一件事情,他对品质的要求是不一样的,您是做了多长时间,现在还在做,是吧?
Editor: I think that an artist once do a thing, he demand for quality isn’t the same. You do art a long time and you have been doing, don’t you?
王:现在我完全放下了。
Mr. Wang: Now I completely give up.
艺术经纬:现在是一个比较平静、单纯的状态。
Editor: I am in a quite and pure state.
王:对,现在就只是画画,也到处走,因为那时候你在地方上做事情,手机随时要开着,要随时让人家找到你,你要在场,你出去玩的时间基本上没有,实际上比在单位还恼火,单位还会放假,老师更好,有暑假寒假,完全属于自己了,那时候做生意是不行的,你必须待在那儿,盯在那儿,没时间让你出去,我是很想走动的一个人,所以我到北京以后,我就一个人开车去山西啊,甘肃啊,西藏啊,一个人开车到这些地方到处转悠。
Mr. Wang: Yes. I only paint and go somewhere. As I was businessman, my cell phone switched on anytime. I had not time to play. Actually I was angrier in the company than I was the unit. If the unit had summer and spring holidays, the time is belong to you. But I run a company. I must stay the spot and look after. I like tour. After coming Beijing, I drove to Shanxi province, Gansu province and Tibet by myself to tour.
艺术经纬:到这些地方,您还是对一些景观感触比较深吧?
Editor: When you went to these places, you also are sensitive to landscape. Didn’t you?
王:我对这个敏感,所以一看就能打动我,可能我对其他的,比如说我对人,还没有到这个程度,虽然我建筑景观的内在主体是人,对人肯定有兴趣,最近我开始有想法把人作为绘画主体。
Mr. Wang: I am sensitive to it. So it can be moved me. Maybe I am not sensitive to other things or people. Though inner main body of architecture landscape is people, I am also interested people. I am thinking that I start paint people mainly recently.
艺术经纬:很期待你的新作!
Editor: I am looking forward you new works!
王:好的,我也希望有新的东西出现。
Mr. Wang: Yeah. I hope so!
Wang Haichuan:
Fading City Landscape, Virtual “Human Nature” Scene
王海川是一位把目光投向城市居住环境的艺术家,早年景观设计的工作经历,使他对周边正在变化着的城市景观有着持续的敏感。那些被设计的人性,人造的风景,公共化的权利象征,无人的小区院景,在城市发展的历史变迁中产生分化。人类对改变自身生活环境的努力,是否正在逐渐褪去它应有的颜色?
Wang Haichuan is an artist who devoted his mind to city living environment. As having landscape designed work experience in his early, he has continuous sensitive to changing city landscape around him. The designed human nature, man-made scene, the symbol of public power and no person block scene were divided in the city development history. Whether the efforts that human being changed their own living environment has been taking off the integral color gradually.
城市景观设计,私人生活环境
City landscape design, personal life environment
艺术经纬:这次展览上的是最近的作品吗?
Editor: Is the late works in this exhibition?
王:应该是我2008到今年的作品。
Mr. Wang: It was my works from 2008 to this year.
艺术经纬:您是哪年到的北京?
Editor: Which year did you come to Beijing?
王:08年初。
Mr. Wang: The early of 2008.
艺术经纬:这一阶段的作品都在这个展览里了?
Editor: Are the stage works in the exhibition?
王:对,大部分。
Mr. Wang: Yes. Most.
艺术经纬:来北京前你在干什么?
Editor: What did you do before that?
王:之前是在重庆,搞景观设计公司。
Mr. Wang: I run a landscape design company in Chongqing city.
艺术经纬:什么时候开始转向绘画的?
Editor: When did you transform painting?
王:2007年吧。
Mr. Wang: 2007.
艺术经纬:能谈谈你的设计工作吗?
Editor: Could you tell me about your design work?
王:我开的是景观设计公司,对于那种小区啊,住宅环境这些接触得比较多,自然各色客户也见识不少。重庆直辖以后,地产开发很热嘛,就有很多项目,但设计过程中所有客户都要求我们把他们的项目设计成为美国、西班牙和日本的,再瞧瞧他们长得都不像这些地方的人种,也就是说我干了几年“伤天害理”的事情,直到终于有一天“良心发现”,想挽回点什么,于是在07年决定关掉公司,我捡起画笔,把很多对建筑,对环境的感受表达出来。
Mr. Wang: I run a landscape design company. I touched many blocks and the house environment. I contacted variety customers. Chongqing had be a municipality directly under the Central Government. The real estates were developed overheat and there were many projects. All customers demand us that their projects were designed America, Spanish and Japan style. You know, their faces were not foreign ethnic group. That is, I had done bad things several years. Until my found my conscience, I should do good things. So I closed down my company in 2007. I took my brush to express the feeling about architecture and environment.
艺术经纬:但是看您的画面是种旁观的感觉,这里面是不是有一种疏离感,因为这个颜色基本上都是白、灰色调?
Editor: Seeing your painting, I have a look on feeling. As the color your painting was basically white and gray, do it have an alienated feeling?
王:对,色彩色调的灰白是一种主观的处理,这有两层意义:第一是,记忆感,像黑白照片一样会成为历史,它满足了建筑的时间特性;第二层是,去掉更多的色彩后会留下最本质的东西。它就是和我们有距离,虽然我们在现实的现在不能理清它,但最终会渐渐退掉绚烂的色彩,变成残缺的记忆痕迹。
Mr. Wang: Yes. I deal with the gray of color and toner subjective. Why? There are two meaning. The first: memorial feeling, like Black and white pictures had been the history; satisfy the time character of architecture. The second: more colors were got rid of and remain the best natural things. There is a distance between it and us. Though we cannot clear off it now, it would get rid of gorgeous colors the last and it become incomplete memorial marks.
艺术经纬:好像现在流行各种欧美风格?
Editor: It seems that verities Europe and America style were popular.
王:对,而且有的地方一条街上,左边是西班牙风格,右边是北美风格,在尽头上还有一个地中海风格。
Mr. Wang: Yes. The left is Spanish style, the right is North America style, and the end is the Mediterranean Sea style in a street someplace.
艺术经纬:这个挺……
Editor: It likes……
王:魔幻的。
Mr. Wang: It likes magic.
艺术经纬:那么他们是怎么形成的,是政府城市规划吗?还是……
Editor: How did they form? Did the government plan or……?
王:不是,都是开发商干的,实际上这是开发商的主意,因为他们是最早富起来这一部分人,他们就有机会经常出去玩,或者叫考察也好,澳洲啊,美国啊,欧洲啊这些,看到人家开游艇,喝香槟,晒日光浴,沙滩和阳光弄不回去,看看建筑,觉得还可以搞。然后回国告诉设计师:“我要把水库前面这块地变成黄金海岸!”设计师就想嘛,你付钱,我也不用动脑筋,傻了才不做,就按你的要求做。然后就……
Mr. Wang: No. the developer did it. Actually this is their idea. Because they are rich the early times, they often tour Austria, America and Europe or called exploration. They see driving yachts, drinking champagne and shining sunbath. The sun and beach in there cannot take. They think that they can copy architectures. They told designers: “I want to the land of reservoir become the golden coast.” The designers thought you pay money, I don’t need to think and it’s up to you .And then……
艺术经纬:设计师也成了“帮凶”,呵呵。
Editor: The designers became “accomplices”. Ha-ha.
王:对!有些设计师就是出于无奈,屈服于金钱的淫威,有的还有良心,会尽量做得不过分,但可悲的是,有些设计师本来就是些没文化的傻瓜!
Mr. Wang: Yes. Some designers had no choice. They yielded to the despotic power of money. Some had litter kind, did not it overdo. But some were fools that had no culture unfortunately.
艺术经纬:您的画有很多画小区的局部,那您平时对一个地方是一下子有一种感觉,还是经常路过那儿,对那儿慢慢形成有一种习惯?
Editor: You drew part of block in your painting. You had a feeling about a place quickly or formed a custom slowly often pass by there?
王:有两种,比如说我去好的小区的时候,绿化做得很好,而且那个房子密度也不大。住在里面的时候,就一下子失去判断,就想我住在这儿还是很舒服的,因为你和身边的其他环境比的话,这个肯定舒服,而且周围都是围墙围着,你觉得这儿特安全,有时候你就不会去想其他的文化问题:作为东方人到底应该住哪样的房子,怎样去生活。所以在有些角落,画有些局部的时候,我就觉得他就是一个符号,然后这个局部符号被反复播放,你每天经过,每天看,你就习惯了,然后他就形成你生活的一部分,你就会对它熟视无睹,你觉得这个是顺理成章的,是不加思索的东西。
Mr. Wang: There are two. For example, I went to a beautiful block, landscaping was better and the density of house was not big. Living here people would lack of judgments. They thought that it was comfortable that I live here. As you compare other environment, it was comfortable and you felt safe enclosed the wall. Sometimes you would not think other culture. As oriental we should live where how was houses and how to life. So some corner, when I was painting the part, I think it was a sign. This sign was play repeatedly. I see it everyday. I was used to it. It was a part in my life. I think it was natural thing.
艺术经纬:也就是说我们“被”放弃了判断?
Editor: That is we were given up the judgment.
王:对!人没判断的时候是很可怕的。
Mr. Wang: Yes. It is harmful that a person didn’t have judgment.
艺术经纬:这种没判断是不是也包含了他的理想,或者是对于物质的一种占有?他还没满足,算是人之常情,我觉得谁都会那样。
Editor: The person who didn’t have judgment that including his ideal or possess of material didn’t satisfy. I think many people would be the same.
王:是,所以这个是矛盾的嘛,一方面就是你没法抗拒,真的,但另外一个方面,你想抗拒它的时候,你找不到其他更好的办法!
Mr. Wang: Yeah. This is contradiction. One aspect, you didn’t resist; other aspect, you didn’t find a better way when you resisted
艺术经纬:你能描述一下我们现在的居住环境吗?
Editor: Could you describe the environment we live?
王:实际上我们现在的生活环境是很被动的,你在被人规划和设计。拿客厅为例,一套房最主要的房间是客厅。比如说一进室内,首先就是客厅,以前我们的家庭里面,改革开放以后,家里客厅有个电视墙,这个是最重要的家庭活动场所。过去,每天一家人吃完饭,从新闻联播开始,一直到韩剧、春晚,这是家庭的一个中心场所。然而房地产开发商觉得这个不对,这个太落后了,我们现在是要向先进学习,先进在哪儿,就在西方式的生活道具, 壁炉是很标志性的西方贵族道具。于是出现壁炉,最早的壁炉是假的,就是带装饰性的,火苗是塑料的那种,它不能发热的,后来慢慢档次就提高嘛,人家就不满足样式了,说一定要烧火,烧柴火,然后整个中心就变成这样,什么红酒啊,雪茄啊这些,慢慢加进来了。
Mr. Wang: Actually my life environment was inactive, it was planed and designed. Take the living room for an example, a living room is primary room in a house. When you enter into the house, the first eye is the living room. After accomplished the policy of reform and opening, a television wall was in it. It is the important active place. In the past, a family had supper and saw TV news, Korea TV play series, Spring Festival Entertainment Programme in the living room.
But the developer said it was out of time, we learn from the west. Fireplace is a label of the Nobel in the west. So it appeared in the living room. In the early it was fake and a decorated thing. The flame was made by plastic and it didn’t heat. Later it leveled. Other said be sure to use firewood. And then the living room had had red wine, cigar.
艺术经纬:这不是抄袭别人的生活吗?
Editor: Is it copy others life?
王:是啊,所以说中国是“山寨”大国!生活都“山寨”了。
Mr. Wang: Yes. So it is said that China is a “copy” big country! My life also is “copy”.
艺术经纬:现在很多中国人,好像挺习惯于别人来规划设计他的生活的?
Editor: Do many Chinese is used to others plan his life now?
王:对,很多人是一种被动状态。之所以我觉得这个有意思就是这个东西本来是,你不是主动在选择,你是被动地在选择,他就给你几种样式,而且现在更多的是西方的,包括有些后现代的建筑,他也是一种西方形式。那我们传统的东方的那种居住形态,他现在是不一样的。所以我在和他们聊,有的人看到那种筒子楼的时候,他说,哎呀,这就是我们以前住的地方。今后下一代就会觉得壁炉就是自己的记忆,
Mr. Wang: Yes. Many people were in inactive state. I think it was fun that you are chosen the thing that he offered. Mostly they were the west, including after-modern time architecture. Our traditional living form is difference from the west. When some people saw the tube-shaped apartment, he said: “This is we living the early.” The fireplace will be our memory the next generation.
艺术经纬:童年记忆?
Editor: Childhood memory?
王:对!童年记忆,实际上对于很多人来说的话,是一个集体记忆,那个时候我给他们说过,哪一家他有什么事儿,家里面有什么矛盾,吵架,一栋楼都知道了,哪家做了好吃的,大家都能闻到,吵架都能听到,哪家小孩听话不听话,或者成绩考了两个百分……这些都知道,那个时候是一种邻里关系。
Mr. Wang: Yes. It was childhood memory. Actually this is a group memory to many people. That time I said, all people living the apartment knew the family that had some conflicts. A family had delicious a dinner, all tasted it. Who family’s child is smart or not and pass the exam, grade double one hundred……these was known by all. It is a neighborhood relation.
艺术经纬:像集体生活一样?
Editor: Is it like group life?
王:对,但是现在别墅和别墅之间交流很少,更不用说单体楼的那种电梯公寓,像门对门你肯定不知道对方是做什么的,你除非是很主动地,有可能对方会主动拒绝。
Mr. Wang: Yes. But the people living in villa, they contact very rare. Living the department with elevate, you don’t know your neighbor’s job. Except you ask initiative, they would be rejected your question.
艺术经纬:对,有时候你主动地跟人说话,人家还不知道你要干嘛,他还有戒备,也就是点个头,“你好”,这样子还行,一跟他深聊他有时还觉得莫名其妙。
Editor: Yes. Some times you talk to other and he didn’t know what you do. He alerts you and nods his head say: “Hello!” if you talk deep, he would be strange.
王:对。所以他这个生活实际上被设计化了,人性被抹杀,是一种非东方的、非传统的一种方式来给你套,因为大家都崇尚西方的科技。中国在本世纪初就开始有发展论,想发展,像西方一样,朝西方学习,我认为发展需要同步。就是说经济与文化必须同步,一味地往前赶最后会迷失掉的。
Mr. Wang: Yes. His life was designed. His human nature was killed. It is non-oriental and non-traditional way. As many advocate western technology. China raised the theory of development in the early 20th century. It wants to develop, and learn from the west. I think that economy and culture must be developed together, if it progress forward, it would be lost.
艺术经纬:对,这样生活的人不在少数。
Editor: Yes. There have many.
王:对。
Mr. Wang: Yes.
艺术经纬:而且那种所谓的高端阶层有钱人,他们都在用这种方式生活,他们的追求,他们对生活的理想是被别人设计出来的,底层的人可能还挺羡慕这种生活。
Editor: The life way of many so called high-class the rich and their pursuit and dream were designed by other. Do many low class people admire their life?
王:对啊,大家都想往那个上面奔,然后他就是一种身份象征。
Mr. Wang: Right. Many people want to progress, and it is a symbol of status.
艺术经纬:发展是您一直以来关注的一个题材?
Editor: In terms of development, is it you pay attention to a theme?
王:应该是吧。
Mr. Wang: It should be.
公共景观中的人造痕迹
Man-made mark in public landscape
艺术经纬:您有一个阶段画庙堂系列,那个时候好像比较关注公共景观?
Editor: You have a stage painting temple series, and you paid more attention to public landscape at that time.
王:对,那个是公共景观,实际上他是一种集合,我觉得,他集合到一定形态的时候,就是一个影子嘛,是很多人的意志被极少数人决定,形成的一个建筑形态。建筑它有个特性,它不像其他东西,建筑相对来说,保留的时间非常长。您比如说随便我们找一栋房子,从修建开始,到它最后被推掉,至少是几十上百年的时间,有的会更长。人是生活在一个具体的环境里面的,
Mr. Wang: Yes. That is public landscape. The character of architecture is not like others, it keeps a long time relatively speaking. Take example for house, from it was build to was push over, it lasts from several decades to hundreds years, maybe it long. The people live in a concrete background.
艺术经纬:对,你看现在房价,弄得很多人人心惶惶的?
Editor: Yes. It is terrified that house price is high.
王:实际上租房和买房,从某种角度上来说的话,我觉得租房更合算,你算账的话。
Mr. Wang: Actually, renting and buying a house, from one point, I think it is fit to renting.
艺术经纬:但是像他们那种急,好像是一种没着没落,没根的那种?
Editor: But some are worried. Their feel like they don’t have a root.
王:对,觉得没有一个属于自己的东西,就拼命地想贷款也好,怎么也好,到处借钱也好,一定我要弄一个属于自己的房子。但这个房子你拿到以后,有年限的,感觉不一定是属于你的。当然,这个话题就扯得太远,扯到一些体制上的问题,制度上的问题,这个问题上,我觉得可以暂时不谈,因为这个是没法扭转的一个东西,但是建筑本身的形态(因为我是做建筑和景观设计的)这些角度来看的话,我觉得这个是人为可以改变的东西。也就是说在有生之年一定要好好过。
Mr. Wang: Yes. They think they have not own house. They request a loan or lend for a house. But the age of the house you get is limited. Of course, the issue is off the point. It is a question of system. Let me leave it. It doesn’t reverse. In terms of architecture’ shape, I think it is changeable by man. That is we should have a great life.
艺术经纬:你有一个《人造风景》系列,你对“人造景观”有什么现实印象吗?
Editor: You have "Man-made landscape" series painting, what the real impression of man-made landscape?
王:人造风景实际上画的主要是两批,一批是关于公路的,另外一批是关于人工林的,它们都是非自然的一个东西。你说公路的话,你能马上感觉到它是人工化的东西,但是人工林的话,你可能感觉不到它的人为因素在里面。我是去日本的时候看他们那个人工林,树完全是人为修剪,他为了成材嘛,长得越直越好,他需要把其他的分杈啊这些全砍掉,而且一个森林里面没有其他植物,其他的全被砍掉。这样一来树木开始报复性传播花粉,因为树是一样的,有雌性、有雄性,它也要交配,它自己要繁衍,但一个林子里可交配的资源少了,花粉就不得不四处扩散,最后就形成花粉蔓延,人跟着倒霉,呼吸进呼吸道形成花粉症,号称他们的“国民病”,每年日本得花粉症的比例好像20%。
Mr. Wang: Man-made landscape was painted two groups. One is highways. Other is man-made forests. They are not natural things. Many people can feel quickly that highways are man-made, but it isn’t easy to you that find that they are man-made forests. When I went to Japan, the trees were trimmed in order to its growing well. Its branches were chopped. There is no plant in the forest. Other plants were also chopped. The trees began to spread retaliatory the pollens. As the trees have female and male, they also need mating. And there are no mating plants, so the pollen had to spread. It led to pollen disease, also called “National illness”. The proportion of having pollen disease is 20% every year.
艺术经纬:它这种花粉,因为那个树的密度特别大吗,还是?
Editor: The pollen? Do the trees have especial large density or others?
王:这个完全是人为造成的,但是我们看那个人工林植树,现在,中国森林面积很小嘛,他就觉得人工的是很重要的一个东西。任何东西到了一定的程度,到了一个比例上面,过多或者一种极端的时候它就会变,这个就是一个例子。还有路的话,我觉得更多的是一种人为对本来这一块自然和文化的侵入,特别这次去西藏看见到处修路,今年10月份好像是西藏自治区成立60周年,然后要求几条线317、318等,全要改成非常好的路面。目前路途上还能看到野牦牛、藏羚羊和藏人天真的笑容。但随着道路的延伸,大量人流的涌入,这一切将不复存在。我们会失去最后的“香巴拉”。
Mr. Wang: It was totally man-made. As the area of forest in China is very small, we think man-made forest is very important. That something reaches a certain proportion is changed. It is an example. I think that building highway is an invasion of nature and culture. Especially I saw many highways were built anywhere in Tibet. October is the 60th anniversary of the Establishment of Tibet Autonomous Region this year. The government demands several line and line 318 and 317 are changed great highways. At present, wild yaks, antelopes and naive smile of Tibetan are seen in the way. With the extending of the highways, and the people booming, it is missing. We will lose the last “Shangri-La”.
艺术经纬:那块的藏民他们觉得怎样?
Editor: How do they think?
王:他们觉得好啊,就像现在我们觉得花园洋房好,高档别墅好一样。他们通过这个公路能看到从外面世界来的很多东西,人、车、流行音乐、汉堡包,以前是没有这些经验的,他们慢慢会有。这个是我们从发展论上面来说,他是一个进步,但是从另外角度上来说的话,他也是对当地的一些生态,人文宗教文化的破坏。
Mr. Wang: They think it is great. It like I think that foreign-style house and garden and villa are good. They can see many things, people, cars, pop music and Hamburg through the highways. They had not these experiences before, and they will have them gradually. In terms of the theory of development, it is a progress. At another point of view, it destroys ecology and humanity and religion culture of Tibet.
艺术经纬:西藏对你意味着什么?
Editor: What the meaning of Tibet to you?
王:我觉得它是一面镜子,能让你看到我们自己有多不净。
Mr. Wang: I think it is a mirror that it can see how we are dirty.
城市景观的中西方差异
The difference of the east and the west in city landscape
艺术经纬:人造的可能渗透在各方面了。您园林这个实际上画的不是中国的?
Editor: The Man-made thing could have penetrated many aspects. The garden you painting is not China, isn’t it?
王:不是,是日本的。
Mr. Wang: Yes. It is Japan.
艺术经纬:日本的园林好像比咱们还东方,他们也是造景,但是跟苏州的园林不太一样。
Editor: The garden of Japan is more traditional than that of China. They also made landscape, are not the same compare Suzhou garden.
王:也不能这样说,只是它保留下来的多,他也是造景,实际上我觉得性质是一样的,都是属于少部分人的,要么是有钱富贾,要么是皇宫贵族,他们想把他们理想中最好的大川大水,或者就是很美好的东西集中到自己的后院里面,独自占有它。苏州园林是典型的,还有就是日本的“枯山水”,还有其他的一些园林建筑,它都是这样。
Mr. Wang: You can’t say that. It just remains many. It made landscape. Actually, it belongs to few people that they are the rich and the Nobel. They want to put together all ideal mountain and water or beautiful things in their back garden. The garden of Suzhou is typical. “Ku shan shui” of Japan and other garden were man-made.
艺术经纬:也像公园一样对外开放的?
Editor: Is it open like ordinary garden?
王:在它建造之初绝对没有公共性考虑的,它们都在寺庙里面,皇宫里面,老百姓进不去的。
Mr. Wang: No. when it was build, public was not been consider. They were in the temple and imperial palace. Ordinary people cannot enter there.
艺术经纬:您经常去日本?
Editor: Do you often go to Japan?
王:对。
Mr. Wang: Yes.
艺术经纬:对那边有什么印象?
Editor: What impression do you have ?
王:印象?日本的文化,它的经济发展到很高的时候,它的文化艺术就变得不一样,我们现在所谓的当代艺术,更多的是批判性嘛,但是他们经济和社会发展到一定水平的时候,批判性显得很弱。
Mr. Wang: Impression? The culture and art of Japan become unlike when its economic developed high level. Our so called contemporary art now is more criticalness, but when economic and society developed a certain level, criticalness is weak.
艺术经纬:建设性的东西多一些?
Editor: Is more constructive?
王:他关注的东西不一样了。我们在中国建国几十年以来,关注的可能更多的是很纠结的社会矛盾,你说八十年代开始,什么政治波普啊玩世啊艳俗啊这些,他是站在一个批判的角度来说问题。但是日本它也有类似的东西,它目前已不是主流的东西,更多我们能看到的是他们在无对象地臆想一些东西,就是在想象一个在现实中不存在的东西,毫无社会针对性,只是一种自娱自乐的。 这个就是我认为的日本卡通的社会土壤。它在这种情况下形成,我称之为和谐艺术。我还写过一篇文章《和谐的表情》来说日本的当代艺术。
Mr. Wang: The Japan paid attention to different things. Since 1949, some social conflicts were paid attention to. Since the 80’s, politic Pope, bohemianism and raffish things were paid attention to, they was criticized. But the Japan has the resemble things, they are not mainstream. We can see that they image a thing that doesn’t exist in reality. It is enjoy itself. That is the social soil of Japan cartoon. I called it " Harmonious art".
I wrote an article "Harmonious express" about Japanese contemporary art.
艺术经纬:每个人都可以造梦了?
Editor: Do everybody made a dream?
王:对,实际上更多的是梦幻的一种东西,他是设计人的那种形态、外形,他是按自己的要求在创造,他不是现实主义的东西,因为你说现实,说历史,你肯定是在审视它,对它有要求,甚至是批判性的,但是这一类东西,卡通这一类的东西,他就完全不一样。
Mr. Wang: Yes. Actually it is a more dreamlike thing. It designs people’s form and figure. It innovates according to its need, and it is not a real thing. It is reality and history; you survey it and demand it and critic. But cartoon isn’t the same.
艺术经纬:感觉起来,他无论是对自己的还是对别人是有信心的?
Editor: It was confidence to itself and other. Wasn’t it?
王:我接触他们,对艺术家,这个说实话,他们既崇拜又不屑一顾,他们认为艺术家是很少的一部分人能当职业玩儿的。因为他们的普世价值是奉献,奉献给社会,最好的办法你就去上班啊,你去当工人、营业员啊,所以日语里叫他们“社会人”。
Mr. Wang: I touched them. To artist, actually, they admire them and do not worth a single glance. They think that litter artist to do art that can be a professional. Because their value is devotion, it devotes the society. The best way is tihat you go to work, and as worker and shop girl. So they called “Social man” in Japanese.
艺术经纬:你觉得搞艺术还是奉献得太少?
Editor: Do you think artist devote litter?
王:对,实际上这不是一种社会分工,而是社会在养你,一种自私的选择,比如说当年我考四川美术学院附中很大个原因是文化成绩不好,只有附中好考,现在的艺术院校考生不都一样,所以我从来就没觉得自己搞艺术有什么了不起,我只是把画画当作一种解脱办法和独善其身的修行方式.
Mr. Wang: Yes. In fact this is not social division of labor, but the society bring you and a selfish choice. For example, I entered myself for attached middle school of Sichun Academy of Art examination. My cultural grade was not good and had to choice it. Now art schools students are the same. So I don’t think that I do art is amazing. I just regard it as a way of extricate myself and the way that was righteous alone in a community where the general moral tone is low.
艺术经纬:那你怎么看当代艺术圈?
Editor: How do you think contemporary art circle?
王:这圈鱼龙混杂,大都是在“混口饭吃”罢了!
Mr. Wang: The art circle is like dragons and fishes jumbled together. They are just earning their bread.
回到绘画依然对景观敏感
Back to painting and still sensitive to the landscape
艺术经纬:我刚才一直想问,这个铜元局是?
Editor: Editor: I’d like to ask what the Tongyuanju is just now.
王:铜元局是重庆南岸区江边的很老的一个区域,是地名。可能你没有住过这种房子。应该是六七十年代的一个标准建筑形式,楼不高,一般是七层以内,有的一般是五层、六层这种,单位修的,在这里面,我说的刚才那种邻里关系啊这种,他就是在这个生活状态。
Mr.Wang: Tongyuanju is a geographic name, which is very old area of on the side of the river in Nan’an district of Chonqing. Maybe you have not lived in such house. It should be the standard architectural form of sixties and seventies, that is, no high buildings, usually seven floors or less, and some are usually five or six floors, built by units. Here, the neighborhood I mentioned just now is this living state.
艺术经纬:他就是一种圆顶房子,是不是为了排水?
Editor: It’s a dome house, is its intention for drainage?
王:一个是防水,第二个是隔热,有拱形,它能通风嘛,对,能通风。
Mr.Wang: One is waterproof, and other is insulation and with arches. The arches can be used ventilation. Yes, it can.
艺术经纬:这种房屋在重庆是挺多的,还是说那个时间段比较多?
Editor: Were there many this kind of house in Chongqing, or were there many at that time?
王:以前是全国都很多。这种一般是国营企业,以前国营大的企业他修职工宿舍,基本上按这个来修。因为重庆以前是工业城市,以前很多地方都有,现在快拆完了。
Mr.Wang: There were many houses all over the country before and generally built by state-owned enterprises. The staff dormitories were basically built according to such form by the large state-owned enterprises before. As an industrial city previously, there were distributed throughout many places in Chongqing and now they were pushed down nearly.
艺术经纬:可能是那个时候的一种流行的样式吧?
Editor: Maybe it was a popular style at that moment, wasn’t it?
王:对,那个时候的产物,也是我们居住记忆的一部分。
Mr.Wang: Yes, it was the product of that time and also one part of our living memory.
艺术经纬:那这个师家沟是哪儿的?
Editor: Then where were the Shijiagou?
王:师家沟是山西的一个窑洞建筑,实际上它就是一个坡地建筑,是在一个山沟里面随地势做的一个建筑。这个建筑我觉得是很好的一个就地用材,比如这儿没有什么树,他就尽量少用木头,就用砖和泥两种材料来做,还加一些石头。而且他们那种院和院之间那种交通梳理啊,让你觉得设计得非常人性,非常人性的。
Mr.Wang: Shijiagou is a cave dwelling building in Shanxi, in fact it is a hillside building which located in a valley with the terrain. I think it is well done to obtain materials from local sources, for example, there are little tree here, then it minimize the use of wood and used brick and mud, and added some stones. Furthermore, you will feel the design of arrangement of traffic among yards is humanistic very much.
艺术经纬:它这个很快出来的,还是慢慢形成的?
Editor: Was it formed quickly or gradually?
王:这个应该是清代到民国时期的建筑。
Mr.Wang: This should be the contracture from Qing Dynasty to the Republic of China.
艺术经纬:民间慢慢形成的?
Editor: Was it formed gradually among the folk?
王:对,民间慢慢形成的。他里面能看到那种传统中国建筑里面的一些伦理道德的东西,就是一个家庭里面,比如正堂、厢房这些东西,我觉得这个就是中国,是中国传统的东西。
Mr.Wang:Yes, it was. We can see that it reflected Chinese ethical in traditional Chinese architecture. That is, there were, for example, something like antechamber and wing-rooms in a family, which is Chinese traditional things, I think.
艺术经纬:看起来不像四合院那么规矩?
Editor: Doesn’t it look like courtyard well-disciplined?
王: 看起来不像四合院那么规矩,但错乱中有规矩章法,因为山西他那个地方,可能也受一些环境、材料的限制,他也要有居住,而且山西的很多建筑是做得很好的,包括那个乔家大院啊这些。
Mr.Wang: Though it does not look like courtyard well-disciplined, there are rules and composition in disorder, such place of Shanxi, may also be affected by some environmental constraints, material constraints, they also have to build for living, and many buildings of Shanxi are well done, including these such as the Qiao Family Courtyard.
艺术经纬:对对对,我去看过,而且乔家大院很大。
Editor: Right, I have gone to see it and it is large.
王: 那个是其中一个大家。我画的师家沟它就是一个村,都是差不多大小的房子 。
Mr.Wang: That is one of the large courtyards. The Shijiagou I painted is a village, and all houses are almost the same size.
艺术经纬:但是互相结合的就特别好?
Editor: But is the combination with each other particularly good?
王:对,结合得非常好,因为重庆是坡地嘛,我们在设计的时候,就会考虑到坡地建筑的一些,就是交通梳理啊这些东西,我一看人家梳理得很好,一百年前就做得很好了。
Mr.Wang: Yes, it is. Because there are many hill slopes in Chongqing, when we designed, we would have to take into account something of the slope building, this was, these things such as traffic arrangement, and I find it was done well one hundred year ago.
艺术经纬:而且他不是属于那种一家隔一个大院,都挨着。
Editor: And they are near each other and not separated by a country yard.
王:都挨着的,有的共用一个墙,而且他取水、排水这些都很合理的。
Mr.Wang: All next to. Some share a wall, and getting water and drainage are all reasonable.
艺术经纬:您也比较关心这种像什么新闻事件,或者是?
Editor: You also pay attention to news and events, or like this, are you?
王:我觉得新闻是历史发展的节点事件,历史在发展,就会不断有新闻发生。我想用我的价值观来分析过滤过去和现在所发生的节点事件,比如说我画《登月》,实际上是对人类科技发展的一个悖论,我们自身所处的地球是否已经容不下我们人类自身,要是月球住满人类后,被人类糟蹋后又怎么办?
Mr. Wang: I think the news is a node event in the history development. As the history development, the news would be come out. I want to analyze the node of the past and now using my value. For example, I painted "Ascend the moon"; actually it was a paradox of human technology development. Whether the earth we live can’t hold us, we want to the moon to live. The moon would be destroyed, how should we do?
艺术经纬:那个时候怎么想到从景观设计转到今天的绘画的?
Editor: How did you transform from landscape design at that time to painting now?
王:我以前是川美油画专业毕业的啊,算是老本行。
Mr. Wang: I graduated oil painting of Sichun Academy of Art. It is my major.
艺术经纬:你是偶然间回来的吗,还是?
Editor: Did you do art by chance or ……?
王:07年初到北京见朋友,被“忽悠”来了(哈哈)。突然想通了吧。以前是做生意嘛,做生意你就会遇到很多让你不开心的事情。但不是说挣不到钱,肯定能挣到钱,但是你会放弃很多,你的原则,你对人的喜好,有的你很讨厌他,但是他是甲方,他有权利,你会牺牲这些东西,我想我现在差不多了,不想再牺牲了。
Mr. Wang: I visited my friend to Beijing in the early 2007. I was cheated. I think clear suddenly. Before doing a business, I faced many unhappy things. It is not said that I didn’t earn money, but I gave up my principal and hobby. Some times you hate him, but he was part A and he had a power, I could scarify something. I thought it was enough and I didn’t scarify again.
艺术经纬:这也算是一种交换啊,好像貌似必须要忍受一下,然后才能得到钱?
Editor: Is that an exchange? You must be bear and then you can get the money.
王:对啊,对。你们做杂志也是经营,你也知道。
Mr. Wang: Yeah. You know, that you run magazine also is business.
艺术经纬:我做这个是因为我觉得那边能挣到钱,我这边就能够坚持着做艺术,但是如果单纯在这儿扛着,我觉得扛不了多久。
Editor: I do it in order to earn money. I think I can earn money there, I can insist do art here. If only I do this, I would be break down.
王:我以前比较极端,要做的话,我肯定要做到最好。我们设计公司,也是在重庆很有名的一个设计公司,我一旦对做事较上劲,就会争个输赢。现在看来有点死磕!
Mr. Wang: I was extreme a little bit before, if I can do it, I would do the best. Our design company is a famous company in Chongqing. Once I do it serious, I would contend win or lost. It seemed that it too rigid.
艺术经纬:我觉得还是搞艺术的人一旦做一件事情,他对品质的要求是不一样的,您是做了多长时间,现在还在做,是吧?
Editor: I think that an artist once do a thing, he demand for quality isn’t the same. You do art a long time and you have been doing, don’t you?
王:现在我完全放下了。
Mr. Wang: Now I completely give up.
艺术经纬:现在是一个比较平静、单纯的状态。
Editor: I am in a quite and pure state.
王:对,现在就只是画画,也到处走,因为那时候你在地方上做事情,手机随时要开着,要随时让人家找到你,你要在场,你出去玩的时间基本上没有,实际上比在单位还恼火,单位还会放假,老师更好,有暑假寒假,完全属于自己了,那时候做生意是不行的,你必须待在那儿,盯在那儿,没时间让你出去,我是很想走动的一个人,所以我到北京以后,我就一个人开车去山西啊,甘肃啊,西藏啊,一个人开车到这些地方到处转悠。
Mr. Wang: Yes. I only paint and go somewhere. As I was businessman, my cell phone switched on anytime. I had not time to play. Actually I was angrier in the company than I was the unit. If the unit had summer and spring holidays, the time is belong to you. But I run a company. I must stay the spot and look after. I like tour. After coming Beijing, I drove to Shanxi province, Gansu province and Tibet by myself to tour.
艺术经纬:到这些地方,您还是对一些景观感触比较深吧?
Editor: When you went to these places, you also are sensitive to landscape. Didn’t you?
王:我对这个敏感,所以一看就能打动我,可能我对其他的,比如说我对人,还没有到这个程度,虽然我建筑景观的内在主体是人,对人肯定有兴趣,最近我开始有想法把人作为绘画主体。
Mr. Wang: I am sensitive to it. So it can be moved me. Maybe I am not sensitive to other things or people. Though inner main body of architecture landscape is people, I am also interested people. I am thinking that I start paint people mainly recently.
艺术经纬:很期待你的新作!
Editor: I am looking forward you new works!
王:好的,我也希望有新的东西出现。
Mr. Wang: Yeah. I hope so!